140: "When military spouses come together as a group, they become powerful." The League of Wives with Heath Lee

Jen Amos 0:01

All right. Hey everyone, John Amos here, creator and co host of holding down the fort. And of course, as always, I have my co host with me, Jenny Lynch troupe. Gentlemen, welcome back.

Unknown Speaker 0:09

Hey, so glad to be here today.

Jen Amos 0:11

Yes, we had an exciting offline conversation with our guest today. So I want to go ahead and just dive into it. Let me introduce you all to Heath Lee, who is the author of the book, The League of wives the untold story of women who took on the US government to bring their husbands home. She also is a board member acting as the historian for the League of wives Memorial Project in Coronado. And she has a very impressive background, which I'll probably pick her brain about quite often in this conversation. She comes from a museum education, historic preservation, and writing background. So without further ado, he Welcome to hold down the fort podcast. Oh, thank

Unknown Speaker 0:48

you for having me. Yeah, for

Jen Amos 0:51

sure. And I'm actually really excited to talk to you because I'm always extremely impressed with people in the civilian world, as I call it, who have a deep understanding and empathy for the military community. And so I know for you, you have mainly been a civilian your entire life. And yet here you are, having published this book, The League of wives and really explaining in detail, you know, who these women are, what their history is, like, which we'll dive into a little bit later. But yeah, I just want to start by getting some opening thoughts from you. And, you know, kind of speaking from that civilian perspective.

Speaker 1 1:26

Yeah, well, it is interesting, because, yes, my dad was in the Army briefly during peacetime, but really not a part of this was before I was born, so not really ever been part of a military family. Having been a civilian my whole life, I ran across this story, really, by chance. And I had done a previous book about the Civil War. So I've always been very interested about women during war time, and that it has been an interest of mine, but only from a civilian perspective. And I think it can be useful, because a lot of the military wives I've worked with have said, you know, it took someone who's a civilian to look at this story and recognize the things that were not right about it. Now, I'm sure I know, the military wives from the inside knew what wasn't right either. But I have a little bit more neutrality I think going in so I think it's helpful because I can be pretty objective about it and did not have, you know, a beef one way or the other, or really any opinions at all, until I came into the story. And the way I came in was Phyllis Galante, who is one of the here wins of the League of wives story was a good family friend. And when she died, her papers ended up at the Virginia Museum of History and Culture where I had done a lot of work on my previous book. And the staff said, Keith, we know you're looking for another book, I write only really about women and women's histories and kind of hidden histories. They knew I was looking for a new book and said, You need to see these papers. And it ended up they were Phyllis his papers, and my mother had been in Phyllis his book club for 30 years. So it was very serendipitous, it was kind of strange, you know, and things tend to when they fall like that, I think there are signs you need to do this. And I spent two hours with these papers, which were all about the pow in my wives during the Vietnam War, many centered in Coronado, that's where the story starts in the San Diego area. And then many also on the east coast in the Virginia Beach, Norfolk area, which is closer to where I'm from in Richmond, and Phyllis was living in Richmond, Virginia when this all happened. So it all kind of converged, I looked at her papers for a couple of hours when Saturday and saw that they were full of this epic war story, really, which was about women's empowerment among military wives who are very conservative, they were not feminist, but they became very empowered along the way fighting for their husbands freedom. So it was just a very interesting story about women that I had never heard of. And really, there was next to nothing written about these women at the time. So that intrigued me.

Jen Amos 4:15

Well, I just love hearing all about this because it holding down the fort. We're all about amplifying the stories of military families, particularly our spouses, I think from a civilian perspective, and this is also me coming from someone who just watched like all of the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, like it's always focused on romanticizing glorifying the veteran, you know, the veteran service member perspective. And actually, one thing I noticed in in the MCU universe is that like, even though they had veterans on the show, like Captain America and Falcon and all that, really amplified, they didn't display the families, they didn't really do the family side of what it what it meant to truly sacrifice and serve in the military. So I love how you're all about amplifying women's stories, women history.

Speaker 2 4:57

My first opening thought is I'm really excited You're here. And all the things you shared. I just I love that you tell the military spouse story. You know, I was flipping through your book prior to coming on today. I read it one summer as a beach read. So anybody out there? Yes, it's nonfiction, but it is a beach readable.

Unknown Speaker 5:19

I love that it is a good betrayed.

Speaker 2 5:22

It's one. It's fascinating. And I think I have been a military spouse through the post 911 era. And I think what really not, I think I know, what really drew me into the book is that I just felt so many similarities. And I my husband is not a POW or Mia. But between the two eras of service, they're often so many similarities drawn, like between how it started between how it ended between how long they both were, you know, but really, we do often miss that family story. And I think reading this, you know, there were just so many things that I have felt as a post 911 spouse advocating for mental health that I just felt so connected to in this that, you know, a lot of the things we hear about, you know, our air of service is like those invisible wounds of war. And I'm here to tell you, they're far from invisible. And it was like reading some of this about how these women advocated for the release of their husbands and the release of their benefits and different things like that. I mean, I've felt so acutely watching paper after paper and news outlet versus news outlet, all these invisible wounds, and I'm sitting here going, it's not invisible in my house. Now I am seeing all these things. And so for me, it gave me a lot of hope that like when spouses get together, you know, one of the chapter titles is a reluctant sorority, and there are many of us that I have found through my own advocacy that like, yeah, that's who we are, like, we are reluctant to say that this has happened at our house and to our service member. And also we're here to make sure that other people don't have to also join that sorority.

Speaker 1 7:05

Right. Right. Oh, that's wonderful to hear. I mean, really, that means a lot, because I do think, you know, in the 60s to PTSD was not discussed, you know, and you know, that whole thing was only diagnosed during the Vietnam War, there wasn't even a name, you know, it was kind of like going back to Shell Shock during World War One. And, you know, all that these kind of, sort of weird ways to say it, that were not really what it was. But that is something that Sybil was so brave about in the book, you know, because that in the 60s and 70s, you know, you were seen as weak if you needed to get help from a psychiatrist. And thank God, that has changed dramatically. But I still think and you ladies can tell me more about that. But I still think there's some shame and guilt around things that should just be treated like any illness you would have. I don't understand why that's still there. But that's true in the civilian world as well. But maybe more so in the military world where you're supposed to be macho and brave, and you know, all of that. So I'm glad to hear that was helpful.

Jen Amos 8:12

Oh, yeah, I mean, absolutely. You're talking about the 60s, my dad served in the 80s and 90s. And he had struggled with suicidal ideation. And yes, he was able to get counseling. But for the most part, it seemed like, like a band aid. And unfortunately, toward the end of his service, although we don't know the full details of why we had potentially lost him, one of the theories is that he may have possibly taken his life. And there's been evidence that my dad kind of internalized a lot of things. So you know, I'm here thinking, oh my gosh, like the 80s and 90s. Like, they definitely didn't value mental health. But you're telling me about the 60s, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I can only imagine, you know what the 60s are. And even fast forward to today. Although Jenny Lynn and I are huge on talking about mental health on the show, we probably bring it up like every episode practically. One thing we talked about with our last conversation with Grant con is that you are taught as a sailor to put your ship your shipmates, and then yourself blast. And so I think that's part of the stigma is like, well, that's not part of the priority list to put your mental health first.

Speaker 1 9:15

Interesting. See, that helps me I mean, I always learned something when I talked to military spouses, because that's interesting. I did not really know that. But it made sense. And you know, there's a lot of stuff in the book too, about the code of conduct and how they had to revise this for the POWs who are told to, they basically have to die, you know, and not give up anything. And that was not realistic when you're being tortured for eight years or seven years. They had to bring down their expectations of mentally, how much they could take. So that's all revised as you know, when they come back, and I don't know how reasonable it is even now, but it certainly was super unrealistic at the point of view. Vietnam War. So, you know, when I look back to the 60s, and even now, we're still probably in the medieval phase of psychiatry, so it's just sort of a continuum. But the 80s and 90s. You know, I agree with you, the Gen, they that was not great either. I really feel like it's only been very recently that we're getting a handle on this in the civilian communities where as well as the military community, but when you're told to put everybody first but yourself, of course, it's going to be even tougher. So yeah, that is a theme I tried to bring up in the book with the ladies because Sybil was so brave. She goes on the record about her psychiatric help, and how much it helped her. And I know she did that to let some of these other women know that it's okay to seek help, and if you need it, and that was radical at that time.

Jen Amos: 10:52

Yeah, I mean, in the 60s, I mean, I wasn't born yet. So I can only I can only see,

: 10:59

it was not even there, like Navy psychiatrist, I did have a field day at the end of the book talking about, you know, what they told them about, you know, they were going to have all kinds of trauma, and particularly sexual problems. And of course, women all laughed on that last one that apparently was not a problem when they came home. So I just tried to fade to black on that part. But it did, it cracked me up, because all the ladies just laughed hysterically about that last part when I asked them, but the Navy psychiatrists scared that these women to death, particularly the Navy wives about they were going to be violent, they might hit them they were going to be you know, and none of these things turned out to be true. So we're still I think, in the dawn of psychiatry, and like, you know, in 200 years, there'll be laughing about how medieval we all are. So no, this is just an ongoing learning process, I think. Yeah,

Jen Amos: 11:57

yeah, I want to put an emphasis on the League of wives, you know, the women that you have mentioned in this book, because I think that for them to have dealt with so many issues of, you know, psychological issues, financial issues, which we'll probably touch into a little later. The fact is that they banded together, you know, and I think that's one of the major themes that we wanted to talk about, really about your book today is just the power of military spouses coming together. And more importantly, when we think about leadership in the military, we think about the servicemembers and all that, but here, we're talking about the leadership within military spouses. So tell us a little bit more about that.

: 12:32

Yes, well, I think that's one of the best examples of grassroots leadership that I have ever seen. And I love politics, I'm always watching and I'm like, people who read my book, not doing the book, but look at how these wives handled consensus building, working across the aisle, leadership modeling, you know, ethical practices. I mean, I have spoken to so many leadership groups since this book came out. People who have picked up on that even before I did, I was like, this really is a case example of leadership. It's female leadership, but it would apply, it doesn't matter. gender wise, is just an example of wonderful, Grassroots Leadership where the individual military spouse was not taken seriously. But when they come together as a group, they become powerful. They are able to get things done. People are scared of them in the government, like Alexander Haig is terrified of these women, like they scare the crap out of him. There's a great scene where he basically rubs a hole through his pocket. He has changed in his pocket, and he's so nervous. He rubs a hole in his pocket and all that change falls out when Sybil is yelling at him about we need to see Henry Kissinger right now, who's the Secretary of State and the National Security Adviser? You had bimonthly meetings with these women? One because they wanted to help but to because the Nixon administration knew these women were political allies that they needed, they needed to get them on board. They were voters, big time voters and, you know, allies if they were treated correctly, which Nixon realized LBJ did not. But that's a whole other thing we can get into. So but for the leadership, yeah, I mean, you could not find a better case example of this. And it really is the Indro visual voice is often lost, but the group sort of dynamic, that is what pushes these women through and gets national attention and international attention.

Jen Amos: 14:37

Yeah, absolutely. You know, Jenny land, being an active duty military spouse and being heavily involved in the spouse community. I'm sure you have some thoughts about this. Of course, I

: 14:44

do. I mean, and also, I'm looking at all of my notes in the book, you know, and he'd just spoke to the vet, but one of the things she writes about over and over in the book is like, how in this situation, rank and who your spouse was Really melted away. Yeah. And they're working hard and collaboratively was what define the wives. And then, you know, there's another line, it says instinct and common sense, we're rapidly taking the place of protocol among wives. And I think that, again, is an active duty spouse from the post 911 era, like, those are the things that I continue to see as a spouse, you know, just kind of over and over is like, there are all these issues that we face as military families, you know, now I'm part of, I am the Armed Forces insurance 2022, Naval Station, Norfolk spouse of the year, and so I got to spend a week in in May with other people who both won this year and our alumni alumni of the program from other years, and it was literally walking into a room of these, and now it's, it's spouses, it's not just wives, right? We're male spouses to write who have seen an issue in our community and gone, hey, we're taking this on. And it's everything from food insecurity to, you know, from the housing experience, this was privatized housing to a lot of mental health folks, I mean, it's really, you know, there are needs there. And because we're able to both operate without rank, and without the protocol required by the military, there is a great groundswell of people, you know, through every service era that are able to come together and really make change in our community. And again, I kept seeing that throughout the book. And it was like, for me, it was very much like, Okay, you're on the right track. Like, if this is the thing that is motivating you, like finding the other people like that is going to keep going. And it was like, okay, even if it's hard with the right group of people, you're going to be able to make change. And, and, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm happy to say like, my mental health advocacy journey started in 2013. So gosh, almost 10 years, that sounds so weird. Wow. And I do believe that we've seen some change because of the many voices out there that are able to operate both within the military community because we, you know, spouses straddle this weird gap of, we have access to all things military, with an ID, I can get on base, I can, you know, do all these things. But also, I'm a civilian. And so there's, you know, that level of like, you talk about Sybil and the other wives in the book, like there is a level of we are able to go to Congress and advocate for things in a way that our active duty service member is not because they're wearing the uniform. And so learning how to use that, that power for good to make change for the community. It's just, you know, I love that about the book. And like I said, it really resounded with me in a way that was like, okay, like, this stuff does matter. And there is a way to make change from within.

: 17:56

I love hearing that too. And I see that because I'm connected now with all these groups and different people, and you know, where you are Jennylyn as well as in Coronado. And, I mean, it's amazing what Navy spouses are doing. It's, I mean, it's, that's what I think civil, if she were alive, would be so proud of is that they were, you know, kind of the the ones that broke the mold. And then it goes from there. It may not be like always upward, onward and upward, you know, it's up and down. But it's amazing the difference that I'm seeing now versus what I studied in the 60s and 70s, where they really were told to keep quiet and shut up and stay out of the way. It's like unbelievable. Anybody listened to that. But it's true of women across the board in both worlds, things are changing. Thank God a lot. So that's great to hear.

: 18:49

Well, I mean, it's funny, I, you know, I see reference in here is like, the manuals, the spouse manuals. Yes. You know, which, like, I would be willing to say most people of my service era, like, have no idea those even exist, much less, like, follow them. And so it's really, you know, I mean, it is it's, it's fascinating to see the parallels, but also the great disparities and like, you know, yeah, I only have the Navy wife book, because I was working on doing a new edition of it. So I bought an old one, like, I have an original, like, World War Two era, like the Ford was written like, right after Pearl Harbor, and like, and I have loved it as a historical document. Yeah. And also was like, Oh my gosh, I cannot imagine being handed this like the day you become a navy specimen going. So just follow all this and you'll be good. Because really unbelievable. You know, it's great. You know, having your white gloves and doing your tea and having like appetizers in the refrigerator at all times. But like, the real nitty gritty of like Navy life isn't in that book. Unlike like,

: 20:00

nor is Oh, W is what do you do? I was like, where's the chapter? My husband's been shut down? Would you know this? Not an any of them. And I was working from 60s manuals were obviously World War Two had to happen and Korea had happened. Not one thing in there about that. So what does that say? You know, like I didn't analyze in the book. But I think in retrospect, what that says to you is that it was seen I do mention in the book, it was seen as a bit of a contagion if there was a wife, you know, at this time, only women, you know, spouses that we didn't have male spouses at this time, but they were made to move off base to you in many cases after 90 days, because they would, in fact, what's the word I saw, like, the other spouses, it's a morale thing. Because if it happened to one spouse, it can happen to anyone that affects morale, it brings everyone down. I mean, there's nothing really, that's helpful in there about that there are some helpful things that I give credit for like deployments and how to handle it protocol, et cetera. But a lot of it is about making jelly molds and dressing a certain way. There was even a list of like negligee to have on your wedding night. Again. There's no way a woman read that even though there are two women that write all this spouse books. I mean, there's definitely a lot of propaganda in there and a lot of gratuitous things that just seem to get slipped in there. But it killed me that it was these two Navy wives that were writing these manuals. And of course, the Marine wife was even worse, like blaming, you know, it is your fault as a wife, like if there's an accident, and you've had an argument before your husband flies, it's your fault, the blood will be on your hands like crazy stuff like that, to outside these manuals is, you know, very unhelpful would be an understatement. I mean, they were propaganda. They were scary. They were laughable, they did have some good things useful, but really, when you get in dire straits, there's just nothing for you. Yeah, so um, I have heard that they are often given as joke guests now like engagement, baby showers or engagement showers. I hope that's the case, because they were horrifying to me.

: 22:22

I mean, I will say that, um, the chapter of what you're supposed to have, when you get married, I did take a picture and send it to my dad be like, where's my fur coat? Like Matthews really? Out? There is some stuff that like you look at that. And it's like, I mean, it is really a glimpse of history, because there are those things we don't follow anymore. But when it comes down to like that practical, like, how do you do military life? And honestly, that's why I had been approached about updating the Navy one, because there is no chapter on mental health, like, what are you supposed to do? And it is, mental health is similar. I mean, you know, Jen, and I've had the conversation about gold star before, like, even now, and I've several friends who are Gold Star family members, you know, from siblings, and children, there is still a very real fear in the military community that if you associate too much with folks who are gold star, it's somehow catching you know, and that.

Jen Amos: 23:20

I don't know that thanks for being my friend genuine.

: 23:24

I mean, actually wrote about it on Memorial Day, two years ago, if you didn't check it out? Oh, well, you know, and it's something that it's one of those just, if it can happen to them, it can happen to me. And it's not that by association, it's going to happen. But I mean, the human brain is a weird thing. And you kind of go ooh, like that's too close to home, I think is the real thing. And you know, it's the same with mental health. Well, oh, my gosh, like if her husband only went over there and did this. And he has, you know, traumatic brain injury and PTSD than if my husband goes over and does XYZ, like, what does that mean for me? And so people do tamp it down and try not to talk about it. And I think, you know, for, for my own self, I've found that talking about it has brought far more good than not talking about it and has brought people on board. But yeah, I mean, you know, there's no quote unquote, manual for it. And but this point with the internet, like there's so many Google Mobile things, that's really the place most people go. And still at the end of the day, people are going to groups of people they trust. You know, Jen, I have that conversation on here a lot is like, I mean, I don't go to the dentist when I moved to a new place without asking like the military spouse group in that area where to go because we all have the same insurance. They're gonna tell you who takes it, they're gonna tell you who's not very nice, like, and so there's a lot to be said for, again, that banding together of people within the military community to support and uplift the rest of us

Jen Amos: 24:58

Yeah, I think that's really powerful. It goes back to sort of the thought of, you know, we're better together, we're stronger together, and a thing and that African proverb that goes like, if you want to go fast go alone, if you want to go far go together. And, you know, this whole conversation is really, I mean, so far the the theme, what I'm kind of getting is just that the importance of community. And I think we really talked about it, it's such a deeper level today genuine, it's like, we often say that oh, like do that, because, you know, it's good to have connections, but but, you know, to push law, you know, to push for certain things in Congress, it's like it that community building is so or that community aspect is excruciatingly important.

: 25:39

Yeah, absolutely. And I tried to give, you know, be fair in the book, even about the protocol guides, because the one thing they do that I think is helpful is to present to these new spouses, the community that's there and the resources that are there. So that is why I don't throw those books completely under the bus. And I think it would be great Jennylyn if there was an updated real military spouse guide that was helpful and had chapters about mental health about what if you are taken prisoner, I mean, look at Ukraine, right now, we there's a huge pow thing going on here. I mean, it's become something we thought would never happen again. So I would love to see somebody, I mean, that would be a great book, like a really good military spouse guide across, you know, for marine wise for Army Wives, Navy wives, you know, we're forced wives, take that basis and make it good, you know, make it and make it a useful tool, which I mean, I think it was half meant to be useful tool, and it was half used by the military as a propaganda tool. So let's take a gander out and make it 100% resource guide, it'd be a wonderful to have. So you know, the end that was presented, this is your community, this can be helpful to you these resources, that was the value in it, I think,

Jen Amos: 27:04

yeah, I'm just reflecting on everything that you're all are sharing, and just going back to the legal wives, and just, I'm just incredibly impressed with what they were able to accomplish. And obviously, if people want to learn more, you should totally get the book and read it. I wanted to talk more about the additional challenges that these wives had face Heath, and in addition to the psychological turmoil, and their husbands aren't being there, but they also were dealing with a financial turmoil. And so tell us a little bit about that. Because it just makes me angry. It just makes me angry to think that like, in addition to everything that they had to go through, and they had to figure it out on their own, they had to lead on their own men depend on each other because they couldn't depend on other, you know, resources or people. Right, you were also dealing with a financial issue. So tell us about that.

: 27:51

Right? Well, let's start with anger. So yes, the whole time I was writing this book, I was so mad. I was like, throwing things, screaming my family's like, What is the matter with you, but it just made me so mad at everyone like and I do think anger, like people are like, Oh, don't be angry, it's distracted. No, if you channel it correctly, it's useful. And that's what I tried to remember. That's what these wives did. Like they use their anger at how unjust this was, instead of just complaining about it. They form groups, and they lead and they get something done. So it took years in some cases with the finances. But to go back, I mean, it starts with the you know, their husbands are shot down or missing. And they can't pass checks. Jane Denton, one of the heroines of the book is in right in Virginia Beach at the PX and she goes there and she's trying to cash a check, and they won't let her cash the check, because she doesn't have an address for her husband, because he's in the Hanoi Hilton. So he is in prison, and there is no address, and no one can give them one or get to him. So she's like screaming this and crying and you know, eventually, it doesn't really get resolved, but they kind of make them understand. But that's kind of the baseline. And then the big thing I read about in the book was the 10% savings plan. So at this time, all the families whose at this time just the husbands that were servicemen in combat zones would have access to a lovely 10% savings plan where the pay could go and really multiply and grow. So it was decided by the all wise US government along with the military, that these men were not contributing to the US economy because they Wow prison and so they could not be the families consequentially could not be part of the plan. The women at first think this has got to be an oversight or mistake, and they go to the court Comptroller General. And I found the papers where the Comptroller General of the United States rules that No, they aren't contributing to the US economy. So these families still cannot. And this is when Sybil and her gang go on the warpath. And they're like, what the living hell no. And so they make a big stink with media. This is where the media can be very useful. They learned to use the media, the newspapers, television, etc. Obviously, we have no social media at this time, but you know, what's available they use and within a year to a year and a half, they did resolve this so that these families could be participating, but the blood sweat and tears they had to put in for a basic right. And that was probably one of the things that made me the maddest of all in the book. I mean, in addition to that blatant sexism that was just across the military and across the government, even worse than the government, it was just outrageous. So, you know, this is their resolving this while being chased around the desk of congressmen, you know, like, there was a lot of that going on, which I didn't honestly write enough about in the book, but many tales about that when they go to DC. I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable what they things we would never have to put up with now, or hopefully not, we're just, you know, normal. This was just baked in to the fabric of how things worked. So that was very anger inducing, to say the least, financially. Also, remember, at the time, just with the way the laws were for women, I mean, we were still just in this extremely. I mean, it's a different era, but it was so sexist, you couldn't take a loan out, you couldn't get a new car, you couldn't rent in some places, if you were a single woman, even though your husband was in prison, not in regular prison. But in the Hanoi Hilton, you a prisoner of war didn't matter, you were still a single woman. So it was just rife with all kinds of financial injustice is some due to sexism and some just due to the military and the government being willfully blind to the problems of military families.

Jen Amos: 32:15

I think willfully blind is the key word there. It's kind of like they do have the means to learn and no, but they it to me, I'm given the impression that they didn't want to know. Yeah,

: 32:28

that's right. It was I mean, there's a lot in the book about LBJ is great society, you know, his domestic programs, they did not include women, they did not include the spouses of prisoners of war and missing he because that was not going to help his reelection campaign. He wanted this shoved under the rug. And I do think that was part and parcel of why they were denying a lot of this financial assistance, because it was, you know, this was just going to make a big stink. Well, that was because the wives then use the media to make an even bigger stink to get it resolved. So it was also politically really done. So, you know, but I enjoyed that part. i Yeah, the revenge. I try to be objective. But when my ladies were not being treated, right, I did begin to take it very personally. So I had fun going after LBJ on that, because it was just so blatant.

Jen Amos: 33:22

Yeah, it's like, what do you expect, like, they're just going to be quiet about

: 33:25

this? Well, he did see he thought they roll over and take it. And that was, that was a bad gamble he made and he lost so and notice he loses the election. And that was kind of kind of exciting at a certain point, because he just treated them so badly. And then President Nixon is great. He gets it. He's politically much smarter about this particular matter, because he is their allies, they need to be treated well. Now this was politically expedient for him to these silent majority. These are conservative military wives that is part of his face. So I'm not saying it was always entirely, you know, out of the goodness of his heart, but I think he was smart enough. I do think he cared a lot about military families. There's a lot of evidence about that. And he also, it was politically expedient to give these women that platform. So it's interesting to just see the differences between one administration and the other. It was a sea change between the two.

Jen Amos: 34:26

Wow, I mean, I'm just taking it all in and makes me want to just read the book, I'll ever

Unknown Speaker: 34:36

go back and revisit

Jen Amos: 34:38

those finer details. Yeah, I'll have more context after talking to the author firsthand. You know,

: 34:44

you'll notice the swipes more again, all documented with extensive notes like this is not my personal opinion. It is borne out by the research. It's just all there. It's all on record. So but now you'll be may be more aware of it.

Jen Amos: 35:01

Yeah. And you know, I imagine from an author slash historian perspective, this must have been so, like, exciting for you to, like, follow the story, you know, and, you know, gather all this evidence and documentation to, you know, craft, craft your book the way that you did. I mean, it's incredible. And I imagine that it's a very gratifying, satisfying experience.

: 35:24

Oh, very when you can substantiate and, you know, that's the problem with so much too, I think kind of pop history and books with no, I mean, I always probably do too much documentation. But I tried to use as many primary sources as possible, as many oral history interviews with the women, the politicians from the time, I mean, my job is to lay the cards out and let you all decide. But there's some things that were so blatant, like the treatment of one administration versus the other, borne out by the documentation, it was just obvious, so it wasn't hard. I wasn't going in trying to prove anything. So you know, to see it laid out, it was exciting to sort of develop the path and then find out what, how were they treated, you treated them? Well, who did not. And you know, it's all on record. But you do have to do with women's history, more digging, because people did not write a lot of this down. So oral histories for the women were really the basis, but the policy is, we're all in government members, and you know, media reports and things like that. So that's why it takes me four to five years. But my editor wishes I would be a lot shorter. But I'm like, I can't these are just, you know, I feel like I want to have as deep a dive as I can. So I can be very fluent and talking about it and explaining it. So yeah, this takes the time to bake that it takes you know, and then hopefully you get a good result.

Jen Amos: 36:56

Yeah, my philosophy is to build things right, not fast. And it sounds very much like your approach as well. And it's like you're doing justice for these women. And I think you really did,

: 37:09

in listening to all of this and like hearing the book really come to life through he talking. I mean, I've read the book, and there was a lot of it that was very alive for me then but like hearing even more like behind the scenes, I think I'm coming away from this conversation with like, Ben, so often people just really miscalculate the level of grit that it takes to be a military family and the willingness to like make things right. You know, the current like buzzword for military life is resiliency. Let me go on record on this podcast by saying no, thank you, please stop telling me I'm resilient. I don't want to hear that it takes an incredible amount of energy to continue to get back up after all of like, the knocking down. You know, I think the the term we prefer in our family is gritty, we got a lot of grit to be able to continue to stand our ground when things don't quite go our way. You know, and the other thing that came to mind is there were a lot of things seem to be like swept under the rug or, you know, this'll it'll get better if we don't deal with it. And that kind of moves to another. Another term we use often in this route Pass, which is maliciously ignorant, like, it's one thing to be dumb, like and not not know and not understand and really have no context for something. It's another when people are presenting you with fact after fact, and experience after experience. And your continue to answer well is well, it's not that big of a deal like that switches over into a very hurtful or malicious, you know, type of ignorance that you know, I would have hoped would have ended with this.

: 38:53

benign neglect is what Sybil calls. EJ she absolutely hates LBJ. So some of that comes from her. But she's like, you know, the, the thing that made her the maddest of all in this was the benign neglect from the government. Yeah. But it's a willful neglect. I mean, they know the whole 10% Savings Plan is a great example. But there are other many other issues and it is sweeping under the rug and I hear you on Jennylyn about the resilience like that is just ridiculous, like, bang someone against the wall. 100 times they'd be like, but you're so resilient. That sucks. And that's those ladies experienced it. I know you're still experiencing it makes me upset for you. Because, you know, you can't expect someone to come back 100 times like that's just ridiculous, but that was what was expected. And I still think it is kind of expected that military spouses will be the hardiest of all and they will overcome all the obstacles, but it's also unfair. It's like a superhero kind of thing like Amara Whole thing that they're trying to put on you that is sometimes not humanly possible after a while. So after

: 40:07

the fact, yeah, I no longer really take that as a compliment. I'm kinda like, would you actually like to hear the story because it's really hard to continue to be asked to be resilient over and over and over again. And, you know, I can say that with like, eight years of counseling under my belt, and a lot of like, work in a 12 step program, like, the fact that I am resilient takes a ton of effort and work like to be a healthy human being, despite the chaotic conditions around you takes a lot of work. And you know, one of actually one of our previous guest. Doc Springer, you know, using the term psychologically elastic, and I have come to, like, take that on, you know, in addition to gritty and like, I'm really tired, like, there's nothing I'd like more most days than to lay in bed an extra couple of hours, and not have to deal with the 50,000 things that are on my list for that day, you know, but in my mind, I can work it out like I can be physically, I think it's given me the freedom to acknowledge that I am physically tired, and mentally and emotionally tired, and also still get up and do the thing, right, without being called resilient, which I now take a lot of umbrage with, you know, I think like many things that started as a buzzword to be a compliment, and to talk about the military community that now many of us, including my children, who are like, Mom, really don't ask us to do that, again, please. Like, it's really hard to make friends over and over and over again. And I'm like, I know. Right? You know, that we we, as a family have taken a slightly different route and really focus on like, what can we do to be healthy, like, we're not gonna use that resiliency word anymore.

Unknown Speaker: 41:52

I'm taking that word off my list. I don't like

: 41:55

Thank you. But my campaign for the end of resilience,

: 41:59

you that I will never use ever again, particularly with military families, and no more, no more than I like psychologically elastic. And I have wives is a great example of being psychologically elastic, like expanding to fit the circumstances, as opposed to like shrinking in and not refusing to deal and also kind of adapted, it's adapting. But it's also outsmarting. Like, where's the way around circumventing might be a good word, a circumvented all the time, you know, the top brass, like things like strapping a recording device to your bra and recording what the State Department was saying. And then bringing it back to the Navy spouses so they can pass it, which of course, now people would think is terrible. But I mean, you know, you got to do what you got to do, because they're talking out of both sides of their mouth. So we need to all be aware of what's being said, share it, and then and figure this out. So that was a whole weird thing to between the State Department and the military, like the State Department would be saying one thing, but then naval intelligence would be like, we didn't know that. Well, what and so there was, you know, there was a siloing that you probably maybe still see between the government and the military, where they should be working collaboratively on problems, in this case, the pow problem, but they are so territorial, that they cannot work together. Boy, does it sound like Democrats and Republicans just I don't know, maybe. I mean, it's just like, nobody is collaborative. And the ladies in my book, were so collaborative. It's just the perfect example right now of working together across the aisle across rank across race across branches, to get to one goal, whatever it is, and maybe a narrowing of goals and agreeing that we're not going to all agree but let's let's work for the common good. I'm whatever this is, it just that seems to have disappeared for the moment. I hope. Maybe people will read the book, and it will inspire them to do that. Because I just found it so refreshing. It's so not like what we're seeing today. I agree. Yeah, and two very heavy topics, which we will get into but I mean, oh my goodness. It's such a rare example, I think of of that ability to do that. So yeah, for civil Stockdale for President. There's Andreea render and, like, I mean, they're incredible, like their natural instincts were so good for what they should have done. So they're my personal here wins for sure.

Jen Amos: 44:50

Yeah. And to put an emphasis on the collaborative spirit, like you said is, it seems really difficult to find nowadays in today's times. On a side note, this is part of why I love podcasting, because I feel like it's one of the rare spaces, I get to have to find common ground with people and actually collaborate with people. Wherein, you know, when it comes to like social media, for example, it's very, like highlight reels and clickbait and, you know, very polarizing content that it is really difficult to find common ground in that kind of space. So I feel really grateful that, you know, the podcasting community exists, or podcasting in general, because it's a long form type of medium where you could really like have conversations like this, which I'm extremely grateful for. So even though I may not be like the wives in any way, I do hope that, you know, we sort of get to celebrate them by collaborating on this conversation today. And really uplifting women, and especially women in history,

: 45:49

agree my favorite topic for sure. Anything I'll ever write about?

Jen Amos: 45:54

I love it. I want to go ahead and transition and actually talk about another theme in your book, which is about transitions. So I kind of use transition in my transition. And part of why I bring that up is because the theme for holding down the fort this year is all about answering that question for career military families of when are we going to get out and kind of everything around that. So give us a couple of examples in the book Eat that the listeners can look forward to touches upon the themes of transition?

: 46:24

Oh, gosh, yes. Well, I mean, there's a, there's a huge transition when the men come home. That's what comes to mind. So these women are international diplomat, they are leaders, they are at the White House, like helping to make policy they are helping in the war. And then the men come home and it's like, Okay, back to the bake sale, you know, there's no way that they can go back to shape sale, like you're not going to be baking brownies anytime soon. But the men Remember, it's almost like that tale of Rip Van Winkle. They've been almost essentially asleep for eight years. Like when they come back, they come by all these sort of six to eight year timelines for the men of the news. I mean, they don't even know men have walked on the moon. So they are still kind of trapped in in a, like almost a decade, like in a 50s mentality, let's say, yeah, these women are wives of the 50s and 60s, but they're now in the 70s. They're in the era of feminism and civil rights and gay rights, and all of these things kind of swirling around. So they have really advanced that way. And a lot of the men, not really by any fault, they just haven't been there. So they're like, totally, it's like a time traveler that's dropped into a new era literally. So the big transition, I think is is first with the wives and the husbands like adjusting to each other adjusting to a switching of roles there and also adjusting to the fact that the women are the rescuers. Like remember, we all knew pilots, right? Like another favorite subject for me. And of course, I love Top Gun and went to see that and had to go see that as cheesy as it was. It was fun. And I love seeing all the you know, the jets and stuff like I have a weakness for that. But you're super cute, good looking, usually Yes. And they're total badasses. And they know it. So that's not good, because they know it. And these women are essentially married to, you know, to Tom Cruise, you know, to Maverick kind of person that used to be a badass, but now their wife has rescued them. So think that's for them kind of emasculating to begin with. So some of them have major problems with that some of them do not. On the other hand, some of the most masculine men in this jury Dentons a good example, Jerry Denton is like the Bruce Willis of Vietnam, like he is a total like, you are not going to tell me what to do. I'm going to resist to the fullest extent he's very masculine. But he gives his wife full credit for his rescue and saving Jim and civil Stockdale, like they are those guys like totally knows that their wives did that. No, it takes them a little while because they don't know what the women have done until they get home. But when they realize that they fully acknowledge that some of them are not that way. Some of them I think it's been very hard to acknowledge that that role. So there there's a lot of transition between the male and female role the who's in charge, you know, he's the leader of the family because these women have also had to be the leader, the mother and father essentially to the over it. So then there's the children the transition between having no dad at home, just not just mom but a mother who is mother and father. And then they have this person that in some cases they don't even know because they were like two years old, when they were shot down word, Mia families where dad does not never comes home and they don't know, they transition from maybe knowing that he's missing to knowing he's been ke he's been killed, you know, a lot of that happened towards the end of the war. So I mean, it's a huge shift in so many ways, but the one I guess that interested me most was the leadership roles, you know, the transitioning of being an international diplomat and spy. And in some cases, I don't know if that word is really the best word, but, um, you know, working with naval intelligence, to being a mom again, and that was really hard, um, civil rights about that, how difficult that was basically come back down to earth. And even though it was a horrible time, that she would never know a time that exciting again, so it's just full of transitions, getting back to being a family, you know, after not being together for so long. So I could go on and on. But that's really the top stuff that comes to mind.

Jen Amos: 51:10

Yeah, it's very interesting how, you know, there's a lot of transitions internally, and then there's transitions amongst the family members. So I do appreciate you kind of giving those examples and not sharing everything, because obviously, we want people to check out the book, if they want to read more. But Jenny, Lynn, just wanted to get your thoughts on anything that he had shared?

: 51:28

Oh, you know, I mean, I was really struck like she's talking about a very common military thing, which is reintegration we all experience after that, after even anything is short and simple is like a T ad or TDY, like temporary assigned duty, you know, it can be a couple of weeks, it can be a month, for the longest my family's done. Deployment wise is right at a year. And I think, man, I cannot imagine, I don't want to imagine what like our year long deployment, and then reintegration post that look like times eight, like, I mean, just the amount of growth. I mean, and, and similar to some of these folks, like when my husband deployed for that time, I mean, we had a baby and a toddler. And so he came home to two toddlers. And, you know, they had words, and they did things and they were so much more advanced than they were when he left and subsequently like, so was I, and then he's been over, you know, in the Middle East, like growing and changing and just to, to impact that already. difficult transition period with having been a prisoner of war and having been tortured. Like, I just feel so much when you say that out loud, because I know what it looked like for my own family with a year. And, you know, some unfortunate war stuff that happened in there, and how long that took us as a family to work through. And that, you know, I also think about, you know, you said the, the spouse was, you know, mom and dad, well, they were mom, dad and advocate, like, they were really playing like three very important roles. And, you know, I think about that a lot, you know, in the job that I do is as a, you know, paid personnel for mental health outreach, and also then doing it independently through podcasting and writing, like, you know, I, I look at my own kids, and I think, am I giving them enough because I'm doing all these things. And in some of those things have to be done in order for us to live life everyday, like, the only adult in the house, groceries have to be gotten now, most of the time, let's be honest, they're, they're being brought by target, but I had to get on the app, and you have to know. But, you know, I mean, thank goodness, for modern conveniences. There are some things that I'm able to like automate and farm out these days. But it's like, you know, some of the things like I'll give you an example yesterday, we were driving home from an unexpected trip to take care of a family member. And my husband stayed behind. He's still with that family member, like working through some health care stuff. And so I drove 12 hours with my boys back to Virginia. And one of the things that came up like right before we left, my husband was like, the brakes on the van are being a little weird. I'm like, Oh, that's great. I'd love to drive, you know, 600 miles in 12 hours for two breaks being a little weird. You know, and so I'm like, My anxiety is you know, about I level Yeah, and, but that's not something I'm gonna share with my kids. Like, I'm not gonna freak them out on the way back home. But it was like we ended up as we literally pulled into our neighborhood like I shared that with them because then they were arguing about something and they're, you know, all these other things. They're always all these other factors and your kids know Ever have any idea that level of like things that you're holding for them so that they don't know, all of the things and you know, mine are at an age now where like, as we pulled in the driveway, and I told them, I already have an appointment for the van I was like so on top of like doing the driving and doing the packing and making sure we stopped for lunch. And then you know, mediating between the two of you like I was holding on to the fact that like the brakes on the van are probably not at their best. And my youngest was like, Well, now you freaked me out. And I was like, Well, of course it did. That's why I didn't tell you. And it's like, you know, is this.

: 55:37

As a military spouse, I've become so used to holding those things like to make sure that all of my people are okay, having to reintegrate and then share that not only share, like parenting responsibilities, and being a part of our kids lives and being a partner again, but like sharing those worries and things was really kind of the biggest hurdle. Yeah, like my husband I had post his last deployment was like, I'd been the keeper of all the hard. Yeah. And, you know, I can only imagine that after like, you've done that for eight years. Because when you have toddlers, like you're not going to your toddler and going so your dad has been shut down. And we're not really sure where he is like, you're just No, I'm not sure. Like, I mean, I've been that Mom, I'm not sure maybe he'll call later like, sort of have to do that after eight years, like the fact that several of those couples were able to work through that and stay married and then go on to do this continued the service work that they'd both done is really incredible.

: 56:38

Well, and I think it goes back to the other spouses to the you know, the other military spouses, like a lot of these women said, these were my sisters. They weren't meant more to me than my blood relatives who did not understand what was going on. But these with this reluctance, really, you know, we got it, and I didn't have to explain it to them. I could go with those worries, you're talking about like, I could unload that because they could not be with the children. You're right, hold that back. And you know, the spouse, if they're deployed, they're not dealing with that like today. And you know, these guys, obviously, in prison were had all kinds of other horrible stuff they were dealing with, but the women were the keepers of that hard stuff for years and years. And if they had not had those sisters, I think mentally their mental health would have been so much worse. So that that's something they all mentioned to me, this is the great side of military life is the women that get it and you don't have to explain this to them. So I hear you on that. It's hard enough to just get through the day sometimes. So they had that plus, you know, oh, gosh, my husband's probably being tortured right now. And like, when will they ever get back? So? Yeah, yeah, it's pretty incredible.

Jen Amos: 58:00

You know, Jenny Lynn, and you sharing your story. It just kind of inspired me to probably call my mom later. So

Unknown Speaker: 58:10

happy to be of service today.

Jen Amos: 58:12

I mean, I love my mom for the record. I definitely can acknowledge though that I don't call her enough. Sacrifice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. So that this was a great conversation to remind ourselves how incredible spouses and moms are, and, and everything. Well, Keith, I want to end on an extremely exciting note on you know, one of the other titles that I introduced you as you are a board member, acting as historian for the League of wives Memorial Project in Coronado. And considering how you wrote an entire book about the League of wives, this must mean so much to you. So can you please let us know what is going on? In Coronado at the time of this recording?

: 58:57

Oh, thank you for bringing this up. Because this, this means more to me really than anything that's come out of this. We have an started by the Navy spouses in Coronado. I did not direct this project, but I've been very kindly included in it as a board member. There's something called the league wives Memorial Committee. And it was a bunch of military spouses like yourself who had read the book had learned about the story and you know, many of these women in Coronado where the story really begins. New a lot of these women in the book personally, some are still there. Many have passed away but many knew them but many didn't. And I've spoken in Coronado many times to also the younger spouses who are like what I didn't know about any of this, like what what is the story? So some of the spouses there took up this cause and formed this league of wives Memorial Committee to create a memorial to these women civil Stockdale. He was really the leader and the founder of this movement of wives, and many others who were in Coronado, helping and then of course, it spreads to the east coast to Virginia Beach and Norfolk area and all across the country among different spouses. But this particular Memorial is really focusing on the spouses in the Coronado area, Booth, air force and navy. So it's mainly those two groups. But we've already have a sculpture that's been sculpted a lot of pro bono time given by the sculptors Chris sloth off and Elizabeth pole now who I actually was just in Southern California at the Nixon library working on my new book and had lunch with them. And they showed me a small maquette you know, as sort of a rendering that it was about this tall of, of it. And it's, it's an incredible sculpture, it's all done kind of with 60s, clothes, there's even a pocket books, you know, like from the 60s and like the suits, and Sybil is the only figure on it. Because there were so many women involved, it would have just been, we couldn't sculpt every one. But her figure is sculpted, you know, it is civil, and then we have other spouses surrounding her to represent everyone else. So we are having I believe the City Council is having a vote later in July, to decide if this will go forward or not. And we are very, very hopeful that it will. So it's great to be on your show, talking about a clause that is super important to me. I mean, this would just I mean, how many people write a book and then are able to see the result being a monument to the women in the book. And by the way, there to our knowledge during the research, there are no monuments to military spouses to email, spouses anywhere in the country that we've been able to find, perhaps they exist, but we have not found it. So this would also be the first which I think is nationally important. So we're really hopeful about this. And there is a lot of information, I think you ladies have it for the League of wives Memorial Project, if you're interested in you go online and learn more about it. So I'm just the historian for it. But it's the spouses that have put this together and pushed it forward.

Jen Amos: 1:02:21

I just appreciate how humble you are. You're like, I'm just the historian, it's like, Well, it's because of your book.

: 1:02:29

Thank you, but I'm the narrator like, that's how I am in all my books, like I don't want to ever be I'm not in it, you know, but I think it's important to be you're the messenger, the narrator, the tour guide, like, that's how I like to see it, a lot of the time I am just the tour guide, but the women are the ones that did it, I would never be I would have been like I can't even imagine I'm not brave enough to ever consider, I just wouldn't have been able to make it. So it's just an honor to be able to narrate and show you, these women, they're the ones that deserve the credit. So I'm just lucky by film them. And I can write about the,

Jen Amos: 1:03:06

you know, this is really what I love about bringing on our civilian counterparts on the show is kind of recognizing the yin and yang to our relationship. It's like, you know, service members, military connected family members, you know, let's like we do we sacrifice for to protect our country, and all the things that go with that. And, you know, speaking from your perspective, it's like you have this attitude of like, I mean, I would never be able to do that the least I can do is honor your story, and share your story and amplify it. And so Keith, I just want to say thank you for that, you know, thank you for taking the time to learn about these military wives. And I know it's really gratifying to the spouses to see this monument should it you know, be approved, but I also know that it's going to be very gratifying for you to know that, like, you were part of the experience, you're part of the tour guide that led this to hopefully being possible. And I'm sure it will be in touch. I will be in touch with you to see if this goes through

: 1:04:06

any you know, always happy to do a follow up, you know, hopefully, at the dedication and we will make sure you ladies have press passes. Like that's another thing you know, if you want to come to that you guys are on it early. I will find you this young man, the podcast from the dedication ceremony. If we are lucky enough to have this go through, please. Yeah, we'll work something out. I know some people so we'll work it out for you.

Jen Amos: 1:04:33

That would be a fun excuse to go back to Sandy.

: 1:04:37

So I mean, you can totally do that. But it's a business expense. Totally. Exactly.

: 1:04:43

I love it. That's gonna love us for that. You know, just listening to you talk about being the historian on the board. One. I actually know a lot of women on the board. I'm having just come from San Diego, back to Virginia Beach. You know, and I just once again, you know, struck by the way that this book has made room for the connection between Vietnam era spouses and post 911. And like, a brand new league of wives is pushing forward a story for, you know, a bygone era. And I just, I think it is really neat. I'm very excited to see where the monument goes, and it come to fruition in Coronado, because not only is this an incredible story of the power of people coming together, but you know, in present day, it's, it's more people coming together to make sure that we can, you know, adequately, honor the past, and that that's really, really special, especially as a Navy spouse who's lived in both Virginia Beach and San Diego,

: 1:05:48

there's so much there, as you well know, there's so much go between between those two posts. And so I think that is interesting. And my other hope for this is with the book, we have an exhibit that, you know, continues to tour about it, perhaps one day, we'll have the movie come out about it. I mean, I hope all these platforms, what I really like to have happen is to get this in the classrooms, like for young girls. Also, though, for military spouses, I knew they have these, you know, the spouse classes, and I've suggested this over and over, it hasn't happened to help me push. I mean, military spouses need history, they need books, this needs to be the first of many books, like the connection you make with 911 spouses. That's a whole book right there. You know, like, it needs to just continue like building on this and make it important enough that it gets in the military curriculum in the college curriculum, I'd like to see it in the high school curriculum. You know, there's no lack of me wanting that story to be out there. Because then it gives people something to hang on to. And then there's like almost an instructional how to guide of how to organize over whatever the cause is. You know, and that that's been, you know, Jimmy, like, that's been very instructional for me to hear about the post 911 spouse. I mean, hopefully, this can be something for people to hang on to. So I think it's boundless, the way, not my work in particular, just the story and the way that plays out. I hope it has a ripple effect that way.

Unknown Speaker: 1:07:26

Spoken like an educator, I love it.

: 1:07:29

Featured and museum educator, so I it's hard for me not to do that. But same Yeah, same, you go see, it just all starts with that, which is great. Like it gives you such a good basis for so many things. So

Jen Amos: 1:07:42

I love that. And I also love the whole, you know, I hope this causes a ripple effect, as well. And I think it will, I think it has and and I hope that it continues to do so

Unknown Speaker: 1:07:51

it's gone record saying Amazon sales are going to spike post.

Unknown Speaker: 1:07:57

I will never say no to that. That's

Jen Amos: 1:08:01

I think as we wrap up here, Heath, I'd like to get some parting thoughts from you. And also some call to action. You already mentioned some just now like, you know, study this book to learn how to organize and stuff like that. But to ensure that should this monument come through? Do you have any advice on how to ensure that although this is the first, it doesn't have to be the last? What can our listeners do moving forward? Now that they've listened to this conversation?

: 1:08:27

Yeah, well, I think you know, leadership and organizing, that's been kind of one of our big themes today that's just come up naturally through speaking. I mean, I think study this is a case study that people should be studying across the board and leadership. There's no doubt I mean, this is the way this collaborative shedding of sort of the prejudices and all these things stripping away of things that surround us to focus on the main goals. So if but our politicians in Washington would look at this as a model and perhaps we could elect some female representatives in state legislatures. female president come on, I mean, how many how long is it going to take us to do that any of these women you know, that I studied in the book would have been an amazing politician see, you know, they could have done anything in a different era. So I you know, I hope people will take that away. I hope he also with these monuments that one thing we've talked about with this monument and this is thinking way into the future, I would like to see this monument replicated at different like different military out not outpost, but Norfolk is a good example Norfolk, Virginia Beach at that at Oceana. I mean, they should have a similar monument. And the way we've kind of conceptualize this is that we're not of course has Sybil Stockdale. So in Virginia Beach, Norfolk, maybe you have Louise Mulligan and Jane Denton, you know pictured and then The other wives behind them that are sort of a composite of others. I'd like to see that because again, just like why are there no female presidents? Why are there no monuments to military spouses, and it shouldn't just be in Coronado, it should be across the country, they should replicate this, there should be committees, you know, across the country to do something similar to honor these families and the children who are also we didn't talk too much about today, but they also bared the burden of the service, man or service woman's time away. So you know, I'd like to see that I'd like to see more books about military families that may be built on this, just like we Jenny Lynn and I were talking about the post 911 spouses, I mean, there ought to be scholarship about this, this needs to be a serious like whole branch of military studies. I'd like to see, a lot of the military academies pay a lot more attention to the families and the spouses and not just focus on the service person themselves. It's a unit, you know, it says, the spouses are the backup team, but they're not the backups, they're really equal. Its home front, and then the battlefield or just the duty station, wherever you are. So I mean, it just needs to be a more holistic approach. I think that I haven't quite seen yet. I've seen the evolution, looking to women like you, but I don't think the military is there yet. And I know the government's not there, in terms of how things are treated. I mean, back to the finances. We talked before we started the podcast about the widows tax. I mean, think how long that took. And I wrote op eds about it, too, because I was so angry about that. That's horrible. It's finally been rectified. But I mean, it took how many years to get that. I mean, that was ridiculous. That was something like 20 or 30 years. So let's get rid of this red tape, like give in the military, families, and servicemen and women deserve everything that you all deserve to be at the top. But so often, you're treated, really, it's like second class citizens, just like my ladies in the book. So that is unbelievable to me that it's still that way. So I just hope that all these things, monuments, books, exhibits, like I hope that we'll all get to serve, doing better treatment better, more equal treatment of the families and the children along with the service person. So you know, I could go on

Jen Amos: 1:12:48

grab some wine and

: 1:12:51

wine, I think next time we do this, we'll have to do it, you know, one of those great bars on Coronado, we're just There you go. And, yeah, we can talk to them about this and have some wine or beer. But anyway, it's a passion of mine, for sure. Like, I just think it's a fascinating subject. And it's one that needs more scholarship and more people to write about write books about it. Well, I

: 1:13:16

think having the book out there in the world as a great first step as a bridge, I think, you know, as you were talking, you're like, you know, we should have more of these and more people should know, my experience as opposed to 911 military spouse is, you know, I mean, I represent point two 5%. That is a quarter of 1% of the American population. Because we are currently at less than point 5%. So less than half a percent of people who are in the military in the US. And so, you know, it has been my experience that I'm sure there are lots of people, you know, if that we have civilian listeners listening to this, who this is going to absolutely open their eyes to the kinds of things we do, my personal experience has been is that I am the person that brought my own civilian family into this military lifestyle. We did not live it prior to me marrying somebody in the Navy. And unless you have a piece like that, or you were involved in history, like you are with, you know, Museum and Education. It's not that people don't want to understand and to help and do the things is that they honestly just don't know. Right? I will never forget being at an event where I spoke for theater of war. And it's basically sharing your experience with war from whatever, you know, viewpoint you have. And so mine was as the military spouse at home while my husband went to work both on a ship and both on on land, which is weird for the Navy anyway, but after this then, you know, there was like a cocktail hour and people were encouraged to speak to the panelists and I had a woman come up and, you know, go, I just didn't know there were people like you. And I was like, Oh, I don't know what to do with that information, you know. And here, like, almost a decade later, there are so many things. I wish I would have said, like, will tell me more about that. And I'm happy to tell you more about me. Mostly, then I was just shocked. Like, what do you mean? Like, did you really not think that people who go to war have families at home and you know, it just if you don't see it with your own eyes, it's hard to know it's there. And so I think, you know, you having this book out there and telling the story of these women who are part of really like a volunteer, sir. Well, during Vietnam, there was a draft, but let's not get into that. But now currently, the current you know, is all volunteer, like, it's hard to know all that's happening, because it's not affecting your daily life. And so having books like this out there, and monument saying, like, Hey, this is a this is an important piece of our history is really a great bridge to getting more people on board with the lifestyle, the military families lead, I appreciate

: 1:16:10

that. I think it is making its awareness, just people aware, they aren't what they don't experience they don't have empathy for unless you put it in front of them and show them. So yeah, I agree with that.

Jen Amos: 1:16:25

Yeah. And that's why we're so grateful to be doing the show. Up in this day and age, I am really grateful to have this opportunity to amplify people in the community and for the community. And Heath, you are a part of that. So thank you, again, for your heart, and everything that you've done to really document the stories in your book, and just crossing fingers for the monument to passing Coronado, we will keep tabs on that. And last but not least, why don't you let our listeners know? Should they want to reach out to you or, you know, learn more about the monument? Go ahead and share some resources around right now some links or possibly ways to get in touch with you if they want to reach out?

: 1:17:10

Sure, sure. So and perhaps you all can post them, I can type them in the chat, or I can just say out loud what they are. But you

Jen Amos: 1:17:21

can say it out loud. And you could put it in the chat if you want because I could just copy and paste it for the show notes.

: 1:17:26

Great. Okay, well, yes. So I will put in now the League of wives Memorial Project. I think I sent earlier because I think you have that and then I got my website WW dot hastily. author.com. That's where you can find out more about me and my books. I'll put that in. I'm trying to think of other things that would be useful. Yeah, well, the League of wives Memorial Project, which I think you have, those are probably the two best ones to find things out about this story. And then there is a touring exhibit called the League of wives advocates and allies that I curated through Bob Dole's as Senator Bob Dole's political institute that is touring the country, and soon will be coming to a new location, which is a big one. I can't say what that is, but I'll let you guys know more about that. And there is stuff about that on the Heatley author website. So those are the best places to find me. And you can also email me through my website if you have questions.

Jen Amos: 1:18:32

Perfect. Well, Heath, it's been just such a pleasure chatting with you today. I know Jenny Lynn was extremely excited for this as well. So genuine, any parting thoughts to eat before we go?

: 1:18:44

I mean, I'm just really, really happy she was here. My own author self is totally nerding out about the whole thing. And I really, really enjoyed our conversation today.

: 1:18:53

Oh, well, I enjoyed it. And thank you, Jenny Lynn for also reaching out to me, I kind of like stalked you guys on LinkedIn, because I was like, I want to be on that show. It looks like a great show. So it was me nerding out on you ladies versus the other against any any chance for people to be forced to listen to me as we've talked about? That or like not could care less than argue with me about the Geneva Conventions award that I know nothing about that that didn't go well the other day. You know, they think you're an idiot. So thank you for not thinking that. That's great. That's an upgrade for me.

Jen Amos: 1:19:34

Oh, well. I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt and believe them and you know, time will either promote your expose you as they say, but it's very great. For the most part. I do believe you and You've obviously done a lot of research in this book, and it's been such a joy speaking with you today. He

: 1:19:52

you too enjoyed speaking to you ladies hope we will meet in person in Coronado and have that drink.

Jen Amos: 1:19:58

Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well there you have it if you all want to get a hold of Heath just check out the show notes of this episode we hope you really enjoyed today's conversation and we look forward to chatting with you in the next episode tune in next time