060: Helping military couples strengthen their closest relationships with Doc Springer

Jen Amos 0:00

Welcome to holding down the fort, a podcast show dedicated to curating knowledge, resources and relevant stories for today's military spouses so they can continue to make confident and informed decisions for themselves and their families. Because let's face it, we know who's really holding down the fort. I'm Jen a Moe's, a gold star daughter, veteran spouse and your host for holding down the fort by us that wealth. Let's get started.

Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of holding down the four I am your co host, Jenn Amos, and for season three, I am really excited to bring back on my co host Jenny Lynn Stroup. Jenny Lynn, welcome back.

Unknown Speaker 0:49

Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

Jen Amos 0:51

Yes, very happy to have you. I feel like we've just had so many conversations in season three of our show so far. And a lot of it has to do with you. So thank you, again for joining me and kind of taking this leap and having good conversations with good people in our community.

Speaker 1 1:05

I'm really, really happy about being here and being able to do this.

Jen Amos 1:09

Yeah. Well, we are really excited today. We actually spent some extra time offline before we started recording because we really liked this individual that we're going to bring on to the show. So we have with us today. Dr. Shawna Springer, commonly known as Doc Springer, and she is the author of the new book warrior. I remember kind of talking to her via email, I felt like she was so humble that she didn't necessarily want to talk about herself. She wanted to have the spouses who read the book, talk about what the book had meant to them. And so let me just give you guys a couple of testimonials to describe this book. And of course, explain who doc Springer is. So this is a testimonial by Jen Satterlee. So her testimonial for the book warrior is Warrior by doc Springer is a true insider's look at our warrior culture with clinical research and application of tools. This next testimonial is actually by a previous guests we had on the show Amy chic, so shout out to Amy shake. She said here I feel like this like really well wrapped up the book and Doc Springer as well. Doc Springer is the only mental health professional I have met who unequivocally understands the warrior ethos, as well as the psychology and healing to guide those struggling through combat trauma. And she now shares what she has learned in the field with all of us in a way anyone can understand. I highly recommend warrior to any reader who works with supports or loves a combat veteran. With that said, Shauna, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 2:39

Thank you, Jen, it's really good to be here with you both.

Jen Amos 2:42

sh, this was back in November: 2019

Speaker 2 3:19

So we talked about on episode 18. And on the on the military, which was a book about military transition, but really focused on everything that a lot of books don't look at, which is really the psychological, cultural and relational side of transition. Because it's, you know, as you both know, it's a much bigger thing than just getting a new job and a new set of coworkers. It's an evolution of your identity, and it has a great impact potentially, on your relationship. So I wrote 80 pages in that book about how military transition affects close relationships, the vulnerabilities that exist and how we can navigate that, you know, really intentional way to keep our relationship strong.

Jen Amos 4:06

One thing I recall from our conversation at that time is the communication a service member has with their spouse after the service. One thing that really stood out to me was when you said something along the lines of and you can elaborate more on this, I'm probably gonna butcher this but you so help me out here after I say it. But like, for example, a service member had experienced some form of trauma, rather than getting into detail about it with their spouse to just say, Hey, I'm feeling this way right now. Can you please be there for me? And it's a matter of just letting them know how you feel and what you need, which is sometimes more important than the actual details of what happened. And that actually resonated with me because I think sometimes when I feel compelled to opening up to people, I feel like I need to tell the whole story. But sometimes you don't have to tell the whole story because maybe the other person may not even understand it anyway. They just need to understand how they can be there for them. A person that's going through whatever they're feeling. Yeah, that's

Speaker 2 5:02

exactly right. So you don't have to tell the details, the gritty details of something that you saw in combat or some military experience that's created a trauma. And that's really important, because a lot of people, as you said, otherwise feel like it's kind of all or nothing, they're either going to share their whole story with their partner, or they're going to protect them from seeing what they see in their own minds, I think we might have talked about, it's a little piece of warrior to my current book, how there are different reasons why people hold back from sharing with their partners. And it's often for Warriors related to the protective instinct, that they don't want their partners to have the same gruesome images, or just to sort of live in that same mental space as they sometimes have to live in themselves. And so what we talked about is that you can communicate the emotional essence of what you're feeling and what you need. As in, you know, I am struggling with a form of guilt that is eating me from the inside out. And what I really need from you right now, is a really long hug. Or I really need you to give me a day to spend time with my brother or sister in the military. And, you know, kind of collectively grieve this fallen brother sister that we lost, whatever it is, you can ask for it directly. And then the people that love you, they can step up and support you in ways that will hit target.

Speaker 1 6:37

I am new to you today and super excited to get to know you. And also have not read your books. But I'm fascinated by this relational aspect you talked about in transition, I know that your first book is really about transitioning out of the military, my family is still active duty. And it just really struck a chord with me when you said relational transition, because we do that every two to three years here. I think that's really a conversation that needs to be had even before they transition out. Because every new job is different and requires different things of them. And therefore different things of me as a spouse and different things with my kids. So I'm really excited to read this 80 pages about relational transition. I know in my own marriage and military, like military experience, that's really kind of where the rubber meets the road is like, what happens in those transitions in a relationship is really what makes or breaks a lot of military families and their ability to do this life. Well.

Speaker 2 7:35

Yep. In a sense, military couples are really adept at transition, they get a lot of practice, potentially. And so you're absolutely right, that everything must be kind of explicitly navigated and negotiated, because there's so much change in the military life. But at the same time, in an interesting way, couples have a unique vulnerability because they think we've done this before. And we're going to play out the same script, where are the service members gonna go? And, you know, focus on the mission, and I'm going to do the things that hold down the fort, you know, at home. And yeah, it's when you transition out of the military, you do that as a couple. And you're both exiting a way of life, and coming into a different culture, a different mainstream culture. And so that's what I really focus on in that book is the cultural and relationship vulnerabilities. And I think for spouses in transition, a lot of times spouses get overlooked, you know, that there's been so much of a focus on the spouse being the support system for the military service member during the time in the military, right? That when you come out of transition, to the degree that the tribe is now also the spouses tribe, you're both losing your tribe at the same time. And sometimes I think the impact of that loss, that grief and loss and severed attachment with the family that you developed in the military, because military service members are not just coworkers, it's sometimes overlooked. And that's a huge impact that impacts both partners at the same time.

Speaker 1 9:14

Oh, man, 100% 100, like, I'm thinking of, we just have friends that transitioned out after 38 years of service, which is as long as I've been alive. And I just think like they did, they just left family. And we still have at least six years if not longer doing this. But yeah, it is a whole family losing the thing. And the impacts of all of that is so great. I mean, even for our kids who would be grown by the time we transition out, but they grew up meeting new people every two to three years and have friends all over the country. And it's all very lot. Thank you for focusing on that. I think it's important.

Jen Amos 9:52

Yeah, absolutely. So Shauna, you are a licensed psychologist and a nationally recognized expert on initiatives. I benefit the military community. So I just love that you have this passion for the military community and this investment to the military community. And so I wanted to just backtrack a little bit now that we've gotten people's attention. And I'm curious to know, where did that desire come for you to, you know, focus on your work specifically on the military community?

: 10:21

Well, I didn't plan it to be fair, and I didn't, you know, foresee it or really have a life plan that involved becoming somebody that really focused on the military. But it was an act of recognition, by me, and by the people that I support and walk with, that there was something that just works in this relationship. There's a concept in sociology of a third place, there's a place where you live, there's a place where you work. And then there's that third space, where maybe you sort of think about ideas, and think about your life and kind of zoomed out way. And so I ended up being kind of the human version of that third space for so many people that I was serving. And so in military couples that I would serve, I was just there, Doc, that would just be there in support of both partners in the relationship. And I found myself being a kind of translator of, you know, well, I think what what he's trying to say, is this, is that right? And then be like, Yeah, you know, I've never been able to really put that into words, or the female partner might say something. And I'd say, Well, you know, I think what she's really trying to express is that she needs this. And she would say, yes, you know, and so I did enough of those times over enough years that I thought, why not just scale this, you know, why not just write a book, it's not warriors, not just for military servicemembers. It is for partners and spouses and family members that love them, and want to understand how to walk through this kind of challenge together. And it shares the things that I didn't know, when I first started doing this work, that I've learned through that deep trust, with not only the service members, but also with their partners, who have opened up about what really happens, you know, behind closed doors in relationships.

Jen Amos: 12:18

Yeah, no, definitely, we really appreciate how you in a way stumbled into it. Or it just started to make more sense. But like, you know what, I need to invest more time here, because this is what they're coming to me for. Are they appreciate that I'm kind of translating, you know, the struggle between a couple and you know, in a relationship, gentleman that I check in with you see if you wanted to add anything? Do you see all the head nodding? I did. That's why. That's how I know.

: 12:44

No, I mean, just just she just, Doc just touched on so many things that I as military spouse, my husband, I have been through several rounds of couples counseling through our journey. And the best we've received is from someone who did that very thing and was that space, and was that translator because even though we both have a military lifestyle, he's never going to know what it's like to be on the home side of the deployment with two small kids, just like I'm never going to know what it's like to wear, you know, a bulletproof vest and carry them 16. Like, it's just not ever going to be a part of my experience. And for us, the best counselling we received as a couple was that very that third space place where we just had open space to say exactly who we were and where we were out and have somebody go. I know that you heard that. Like it was negative, but here's what's actually going on. Yeah. And it's just so life giving, it was so life giving to me to be like, Oh, every week for an hour, I have a space for somebody who is in sup ahead, kids to tell my husband, you know what I'm actually trying to convey? Because we're not enemies. Yeah,

: 14:01

it isn't on anybody's side, you know, a good relationship, therapists will fight for the relationship. They will identify things in both parties that need to be looked at in a really compassionate way. That says to both people, I have your back, and I want what's best for this relationship. And they'll challenge you. And with the military, it's important for people that do that translational work to also understand the military ethos, which is part of spouses culture to now. Right. So, I mean, we could take a silly example, like the whole thing about in marriages, like when women share problems, and you know, they say, I don't want you to solve my problem. I want you to just listen to me. Like, here's the reason why men and women have that conversation and get stuck there. Over like every generation of men and women that's ever come together in a relationship. What happens is one partner usually, but not always the woman is sharing problems, troubles talk, because that's how women are socialized to connect. We talk about our problems, and our friends in our female circles will go, Oh, me, too. Me too. Yeah, I have that problem, too. So that's how we're used to socializing. And what we're looking for is for partners to connect with us in that same way by saying, Yeah, I've been in that hole too, and you have every resource and strength to get yourself out of that. But I'm with you, I've got your back. That's what we want. And when our partner responds with a solution to the problems that we're having, what they're effectively saying is, I outrank you, wow, I know better than you do, how to solve your own problems. And I just I outrank you. So let me tell you how to solve that problem. Now, the husband doesn't mean to be doing that. It's not always the husband. But usually, a husband gets totally jacked up inside physiologically when the woman he loves or his partner that he loves, is distressed and struggling. So the gift for a man to give to his, if it's a female partner, is to do nothing, but be there and have her back. Because everything in his biology wants to solve it, fix it, protect her, and move in supportive of her in a very action oriented way. And she's saying that it, don't do that. Join me. Don't tell me you outrank me. So all of these kinds of problems that men and women have, can therefore be constructed into like a military language, and translated, not only between genders, but in terms of the military culture, which is like another layer of how people translate things in their relationships. Does that? Does that fit for both of you?

Jen Amos: 16:53

Oh, yes. So there's this, I don't know if you if either of you, I'll probably email this to you guys later. But there's this funny video of a couple. And this isn't like real or anything, but this girl has a nail on her forehead. have used the Okay, gentlemen. So you know, so there was a nail, I'll explain to our listeners if they're hearing this for the first time. So this girl has a nail on her forehead. And she's saying, like, I feel a lot of pain right now. Like, I'm feeling like, there's something I can't describe it. But there's something going on in my head or whatever. And her partner, which is a guy, he's all like, there's a nail on your head. And she's like, No, it's not about the nail. She's like, don't try to fix my problems. I'm trying to tell you how I feel. And it's just so funny, because like, the guy is like, but but if you just if you just pull out the nail, you're gonna be okay. It's funny, because I played this to my husband. And he's like, there's a nail. I was like, Yeah, but it's not about the nail, like the title of the movie, the little video clip, it's not about the nail. And it just shows very clearly and visually, yeah, the difference between men and women, when it comes to generally speaking, when it comes to problem solving. And I just love how you describe that where, you know, every time I try to teach my husband to validate me, I tried to explain, I tried to give examples of how my friends do it, you know, just like how you describe, it's like, oh, I'm going to share how I feel. And my friends are joining me. They're saying, like, I'm here with you, I, you know, I validate you, like, you know, like, I know, your pain. And so I try to tell that to him, I'm like airing out my dirty laundry now. But anyway, I share that to him. And he's all like, like, he doesn't know how to do it. But fortunately, because, you know, we as well are in counseling and what you were saying Jennylyn about, like, just having that third space to, like, have that translator, you know, in between you. It's like, it's so powerful. Because, you know, what I've come to learn with my husband is that like, we both love each other, we just love each other, we express love in a different way. And rather than jumping to that conclusion of like, Oh, he's just trying to fix my problems, because he's a veteran. He's solution oriented. You know, it's like, rather than think of it that way, I love how you describe it Shana by saying, like, you know, that's just his instinct, you know, to protect me or to help me in that way. Because if he can't, then it's like, it's going against his nature. And it's almost like he's going to suffer because he's watching me suffer. And he feels like you can't do anything about it. And so like, I feel that pain, I can empathize with that. And if it wasn't for valuing mental health and getting counseling services, it's like, wow, I would not like I would not have thought that way. So it's very profound. And you know, like we said, generally speaking, you have like, you know, a man and a woman together. This is generally the problems that tend to come up in this miscommunication.

: 19:25

Yeah, just painful to them physically painful, they will suffer in the sense of helplessness of not being able to protect their partner. So think about the energy they have to put into inhibit their natural responding. And the only reason they would do that is if they have a transformed understanding of why they would do that. That being able to then become over time, that third space for their partner, where they can just sit and not judge, but join and be with and walk with their partner is the way to help them through it to say I know that you have the strength and the ability to take the nail out of your own head. So I don't need, you know, I don't need to do that. So if they have that understanding, then that behavior can change, but not unless people become consciously aware of it. So that's kind of a lot of what my book is about is making people consciously aware of this is just one example of so many things happen in relationships, that can cause a lot of pain for people that they don't mean to.

: 20:29

I was chuckling as you're sharing, I have a very clear image of myself yelling back at my husband, I don't work for you. So when you when, when you like, we're talking about you know, and then it feels like a rank thing. I was like, Oh, I never thought about I knew he was solution oriented. We have butted heads over that for years, because he's like, I just want to fix it. And you keep coming up with all these issues. It's not a solution. So I'm going to come at you with the solution. But like, No, it's because it does feel like he knows better. And I have on more than one occasion, you know, been like, I don't work for you. Like, I'm not first classroom. Sorry. Like, not it?

: 21:08

Yeah, yeah. And so now that, like, that's a very common thing. You know, CES, you talk about joking, the airing dirty laundry, but it's like everybody's laundry. So is it really dirty? I mean, right? We all have the same dirty laundry, then you can go, what would it look like then to go back to him and say, It must be really hard for you to hear me talk about how I'm struggling with this stuff. And I'm asking you not to do anything about it. Because I know you love me and you want to solve it. And you're motivated by love, what I really need from you, is this because otherwise, I feel like rank enters the room. And I want us to be pulling equally as partners in this, that would change the entire conversation for most couples, unless they're highly strained, most couples would be able to hear that from each other. And it would just change the whole foundation for how they talk about that. So yeah,

: 22:01

that I was gonna say that's such a learned practice, like something that we've really had to work at. And one of our therapists that, you know, you just have to give him the words and I was like, He's a grown man. He like manages people and things and millions of dollars for the baby. Like, I gotta give him the words. And so but it's very reassuring to hear you say that one, that's not me airing my dirty laundry, it's everybody's dirty laundry. And to just that, like, for us, I mean, especially over this past year, that's really been where we've had to do that to say, like, to really, you know, get on the same page of, I don't need a solution. I just need you to sit and listen. Right? It's really more helpful to me, when that's how you act and who you are with me. It has I mean, it's brought more we've been married 11 and a half years. And I'd say in the past year, year and a half like that has brought more intimacy, like relationally not just sexually explicit.

: 23:09

go hand in hand, you know, I mean, it's yeah, you know, it's, there's a book that came out years ago, that makes me think of this conversation called Love and respect. And there was this sort of false premise of, you know, if you had to choose one or the other, would you choose to be loved or respected? This is my first book back in 2012. I took a look at that and said, Well, in my circle of women who are generally very highly educated, mostly Ivy League graduates, we probably want to be respected more than we want to be loved. And it varies. There's different, you know, people want different things. But really, it's just kind of a silly question, because there is no love without respect. And so if you feel loved and respected, that's when both of the people in the relationship can really open up to a new level of intimacy. So that completely makes sense. And one of my, like, long standing private dreams would be to, you know, like, Dear Abby, you know, had like, the little advice column for etiquette? Well, that's not what I could do well, but if people could, like, send me a little question about their relationship, you know about how to deal with this or that or transition or different topics. I would love to someday like kind of respond in like, brief form, and like, really do this kind of work at scale, and help people understand and translate these things.

Jen Amos: 24:31

You know, one thing that stood out to me the most in our conversation so far is I know, this ties into your books, Shauna is that ultimately relationships need the tools to communicate with one another. It's not that they don't love each other. It's just, we didn't go to school to study relationships, right? And so that's why we have experts like you to be able to provide that education and language and verbiage and everything I really liked how you were kind of scripting out like what you should say to your spouse and I mean, I jokingly kind of make fun of my husband for this because like I often when I get into heated conversations, I'll say like, I'm not even playing mind games with you, I'm literally telling you like what I want, like, I'm literally telling you like, I just need you to sit there and listen, and then paraphrase what I said afterwards. So I know that you heard me, you know, but it's a practice, you know, and that's what I realized with him is that, like, he's never really practiced that with anyone before. And so I feel fortunate to, I guess, kind of go through that experience with him. But it is so interesting how that can be. So I guess complicated in romantic relationships versus let's say, our friends were, it's just so easy, at least for me and my girlfriend's it's so easy to just open up and confide in each other and encourage each other and validate each other and like you said, trying to join, join each other in solving that issue, as opposed to outranking them. So I just think it's fascinating and a fun discussion to share on the show.

: 25:54

Yeah, and here's the thing, Jen, it's really interesting, because this whole idea that sometimes we don't get enough practice in relationships. I agree with that. But it's super interesting. At the same time, if you think about military training, is years of practice about communication. What they're doing is instilling a culture, a set of values, a way of thinking, a way of solving problems and a way of navigating through, say tactical situations, right? So that you can take what is explicit and make an implicit so that you can develop the communication to such a level that people don't have to say. So without saying the word with hand signals and the training the drills that years of drills that go into that, you can implicitly communicate intent, and where you're at, and other things like that. So I think it's a shift that we're talking about in terms of making this kind of communication, explicit, which feels really weird to people. At first, it feels unnatural, and very different from the way that they communicate in the military. But it totally can change your relationship. So yeah,

Jen Amos: 27:06

yeah, I kind of feel like I need to pause and like process, everything we've been talking about so far, because it's so true.

: 27:12

Again, that makes total sense to me and made me think about my own relationship. My husband and I both communicate for a living, like people pay us money to communicate on behalf of an organization. And I'm often so struck that like, we struggle so much in communication, I mean, I write words and blog posts and books and people, you know, tell me how much it resonates with them. And I'm like, I've lived with this person, for 11 and a half years, and people pay good money to communicate, and we just cannot do it. And it really, for me, is that ingrained, and female so I'm communicating in a mutual way. And he's communicating in a organizational structure. This is how we do the things because this is how we do the things and, you know, versus the way that I do it. And it I'm just very struck and processing allowed that whole like, Well, yeah, I mean, he's been in the Navy for almost 14 years. Of course, he communicates that way. Like, he's had 14 years of consistent, this is how we do the things.

: 28:16

Yeah. And it works, right, that works for that setting, like beautifully. Like that's why we have such a powerful military, it's just that there has to be an adaptation that's made in the relationship. And so, you know, it's a different way of thinking and a different way of communicating. And I've had, you know, plenty of surprises on this journey, too. I mean, I used to think courage, you know, the capital C is courage, a person has courage, or they don't, until the day that a Special Forces operator looked me dead in the face with a face full of fear and said, I would rather walk into the kill zone of an ambush than and tell my wife how much I love her neater. Wow. So those kinds of experiences really, you know, surprised me and helped me to see that it really does take a different kind of courage. And that, you know, we talk about what is your tribe? What is your tribe? What does that mean? Tribe is a Native American term, of course, I don't want to, you know, take it out of that context. But as well, Sebastian, you wrote that beautiful book on tribe, and his definition of tribe is the people that you would share the last of your food with. And I like that, I like that. But I would add, I would add this to that definition. Tribe is also to me now, the people that you take your armor off with, and for many warriors, that may be harder to do than to share the last of their food.

Jen Amos: 29:43

Yeah. Wow. It's powerful. Well, Shana, why don't we talk a little bit about warrior and talk about what are some tools that we want to maybe hint at or share today, let's say to the military spouse that has some Other issues as genuine and I with that communication, and also what they can expect from the book warrior?

: 30:07

Well, as I said, you know, against the advice of a few people who said, don't write your book for more than one audience, I really tried to write my book not just for Warriors, but for their partners and loved ones at home. Because I think it's so important for partners and loved ones, to understand the hidden pain, that warriors may not be sharing with them. And I felt this responsibility, this sort of sacred responsibility to protect their confidentiality, but to share their wisdom in a way that would be scaled, so that people could learn from what I was understanding about what really is going on. Because as a therapist, you know, I found that the first story that people told me was not the story I needed to understand it was the safe story, that if I built the trust, there was almost always a story behind the story. And the original title for warrior, how to support those who protect us was actually down voted by enough people that I changed it, but it was going to be the fox in our gut, on hidden pain, courage and love. That was going to be my original title. And the concept was based on the boy of Sparta. Have you guys heard that story? Or should I give you a cliff notes version?

Jen Amos: 31:29

Cliff Notes for our listeners, and yes, for me, okay.

: 31:33

So Sparta was a very stoic culture, very warlike culture, they trained the kids from a young age to be warriors. And so suffering in silence was a strong ethos in the Spartan culture. And there was a boy who stole the fox and put the fox under his coat and went to school. And while he was in the classroom, the fox got hungry and started to eat his stomach. And because of the Spartan culture, and the value they place on stoicism, he didn't say a word. And he sat there and he suffered in silence, while the fox eight has got until he suddenly dropped over dead. And that to me, as the kind of person in the trenches with lots of warriors, who have had times of suicidal crisis seemed like the best analogy I can think of to describe why we are losing people. And sometimes we don't see it coming. They don't show signs that are professionally good at compartmentalizing their pain. And there's a story behind the story. And that's terrifying for the people that love them for their spouses and partners at home. That's terrifying. And I was in a position to hear about the story behind the story from so many of the workers that I walked with, whether it was moral injuries, whether it was survivor guilt, grief, from losing brothers and sisters and arms to suicide, or combat, or feeling responsible if they were in a position of leadership, these things that would eat them alive, or the things that we ended up talking about. And so warrior first and foremost, is a respectful look at revealing the fox in the gut of the people that those On the homefront tribe, you know, love and can't lose. And so that's kind of the theme all the way through the buckets, I take different topics and hit survivor guilt, grief, moral injury, suicide crisis, and really tried to share the story behind the story. And then there's a couple of topics that really deal with the relationship specifically. I mean, one of those is called friendly fire. It's about rage at home. And really helping people develop a new understanding of anger and conflict. It's something that I found many military couples were somewhat avoidant of doing actually, and then it would blow up into a big thing. You know, rather than really kind of setting off a cherry bomb, it ended up kind of getting delayed, you know, avoided and then it created a really big issue where the relationship became unstable and kind of volatile. So talking about the value of accelerating into conflict in the right way in a way that keeps the relationship safe and keeps each other safe is a focus of one of the chapters as it is kind of opening up about, you know, what you're struggling with, as we were talking about before without having to talk about all the gritty details of of what you saw and did which isn't necessary.

Jen Amos: 34:29

Absolutely. Well, Shana, you are a godsend to our community. I just want to thank you so much for your dedication and all of the work that you have done for our community and to be on the show again, you know, to drop some more knowledge with us I really appreciate you for that.

: 34:45

I was trying to process the accelerating in the conflict. I was thinking I'm wondering if doc you've found that part of the reason people don't do it at home is well one because of upbringing that's about found a lot in my role. externship, but to, you know, there's a lot of messaging out there both for the service member veteran and the family on what we can and can't share. And, you know, for myself, my husband and I had a particularly long battle over, you know, some of the messaging, I got it, like our Family Readiness Group meeting prior to his deployment about these are the things we don't talk about while you're in deployment, because you have to be mission ready. And these are things that I will inherently have to handle on my own, or with the help of the people physically present. Yep, you know, and so he returned from his he did back to back deployments and return from a second it was kind of like, Who are you guys? Why didn't I know? XYZ? Why didn't you tell me and was very upset with me. And I'm going, because they told me not to. Because there's literally like, pages and pages of articles that say you have to stay mission ready. And it's my job as your spouse to help you do that. And, you know, for us, I think that almost led to more conflict than anything else, because he really wanted to be a part of our team, like our family team. And I'm like, Well, I am on your team, because I let you be mission ready. So I just wondered if that's kind of what like, if you found that to be a factor in the like, avoiding conflict, because we were, we're all messaged a certain way in this lifestyle?

: 36:30

Absolutely, absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that up. So, so many of the warriors that I walk with and serve, they have two tribes, they have two families, they have a family, they, you know, go on military operations with and training with, and they have their Homefront tribe. And it goes both ways. I mean, they can feel excluded. Right, here's another example. They can feel excluded, and there was nothing in you that was motivated to exclude, or to keep him outside of that circle of trust, all you have to do is hear one time, a distracted warrior is a dead warrior. Right. And it seeds deep in you that your job is to just deal with it at home, just remove obstacles, keep the stress level low. And as a result, your partner can begin to feel disconnected from the tribe they need at home. So I think one of the things is to really go back to, you know, every relationship is different. And different people have a different capacity for what they want to know, it's like, I didn't talk about it in this book. But in my first book, I talked about the psychology of healing from affairs, I'm probably gonna get back to that and write a little bit more about that, because I want to write a kind of general relationship book for the general population next, but when there's an affair, it varies within couples in terms of how much the injured partner wants to know. Some people need to know every detail, and some people don't want to hear every detail. So there are relationship differences. And you sort of have to have that conversation and navigate that within each relationship. As far as what level of detail you can share with your partner about stress on the homefront. And they may feel more stressed, if they don't know what's going on, then less stress. So that's another principle that like, that I really wanted to bring forward with warrior is that so much of what happens both ways for both spouses is done out of a protective instinct. That's your warrior wife, protective instinct right there. I mean, I would call you both a warrior wife. And you have the same protective instinct. And there's a reason why warriors married or your wives. And the relationships that survive through military life, often are great pairings of people with their own strength and their own warrior ethos. So you're protecting your partner. But anxiety exists in proportion to what we don't know. So for many times, you try to protect your partner by telling them less, and their anxiety ratchets up because they sense your stress, but they don't know why they're whites there. It goes both ways on this. And so finding out what the sweet spot is in terms of what you could share with them, to let them know what the situation is. And let them weigh in and have some sense of being part of that Homefront, tribe and whatever, you know, if you can take a solution oriented frame from time to time to come to solutions together that can be really helpful. So it's a little bit of an individual relationship negotiation. Those are some general principles that I would share.

Jen Amos: 39:37

Yeah, wow. I just I like circled the phrase that you said like censoring stress. And, you know, that kind of reminds me of the dynamic I have with my husband sometimes where and I realized this recently through counseling is that he censors information from me sometimes as a way to protect me so very much like like how you described it for me because I lost my dad at a young age, and I never found out why I have abandonment issues, I have to know things. You know, it's like, I have to know why I have to process that stuff. And that's something I had to learn. So part of the struggle, you know, is trying to tell him like, I feel safer, if you just let me know, I don't care what it is, just tell me. So then I can process it in my own way. But you know, in withholding information, it feels traumatizing. For me, it brings me back to like my childhood, you know. And so I find it very affirming and reassuring that you say that, because I think the common theme of what we've been saying today is that our spouses, we love each other, it just comes down to having the tools to communicate, and like you said, even negotiate, what to share and what not to share. I used to think that people would withhold information from me as a way to hurt me, but I have learned is like, Oh, this is just recently I was like, oh, like, sometimes he withholds information to protect me. And I have to respect that in a way, you know. So it's very profound, I feel like I can't wait to edit this interview and replay all of this, because this is again, and this is why I love bringing you back on for a second time as you just share a lot of valuable knowledge that I think that our spouses and our couples in the military will absolutely appreciate.

: 41:21

Thanks, Jen. And you know, it's also translating it into military terms. So once you understand that, your partner is not doing that to hurt you, your partner is actually doing it because they love you and they want to protect you, then you can come to them and say, like, I'm remembering a Vietnam veteran who did that for decades with his, his loving wife needed to know things, and he withheld sharing with her. And so I had them both in my office one day, and I said, you know how you were telling me how when you were at that remote outpost in Vietnam, and you could hear the whispers of Vietcong, like in the bushes, like maybe 50 yards over and how terrifying that was, when you don't tell your wife, the nature of what the struggle is, she's got to hear the whispers of the VC. Wow. And that drove I mean, they just right there on the spot, change that pattern, because it's not just enough to share general communication about relationships, you know, in a kind of civilian sense. But to translate it into terms that veterans understand that you are actually creating more anxiety for this partner you love. And if you could share with her enough of the nature of what you're up against, she would settle, she's strong enough to handle it, you gotta worry your wife there. So just share enough of it that you guys can come up with a plan, and then you guys will find your collective anxiety is much, much lower than it is now.

Jen Amos: 42:48

Wow, powerful. Wow. Trying to I feel like we could talk to you all day and squeeze out so much knowledge from you. But that is why you have books. And I know that people will be more than happy to find you on LinkedIn and find you online to be able to get that.

: 43:01

Well. It's funny, you circle the portion about sharing actually wrote down anxiety exist in the proportion you don't know and that I love the Vietnam example you just shared. For me, that has been my experience as a military spouse, my anxiety is in direct correlation to all that. I don't know, it was at its worst during my husband's second deployment. And, you know, has ebbed and flowed since then, literally based on the amount of things I knew or could control or any of those things. And so I just I really appreciate you highlighting that and be like, helping people to get on the same page with that, because it's hard to understand that that comes from a place of love when you're the one feeling all the anxiety.

Jen Amos: 43:49

Wow, that's just what's the word. It's, it's like it's bittersweet in a way because it's like they love me, but it's so sad, like how they express their love or how we express our love to each other. Doc Springer, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on our show. I don't want to take too much more of your time. I would if I could, but you know, I respect your time. And I respect you very much. Just for our conversation today or for our listeners. How can they find you online if they want to learn more about you and check out your books?

: 44:17

Yeah, thanks. So, Doc Shona Springer de OC, SHA una SPR ing er.com. I've started doing paid talks on relationship topics on corporate topics, as a psychologist, you know, understanding COVID and other related traumas and anxieties. So I've kind of launched a speaking thing. And I've also just signed up for Instagram. And I'm new to rally point I was invited to sign up for that. I didn't know you could and I wouldn't push it if I hadn't been invited by a colonel to sign up for that. So if people want to connect with me and kind of helped me figure out be patient with me on Instagram because I'm really awkward with that. And rally points. That would be awesome.

Jen Amos: 45:01

That's awesome. Yeah, I didn't even I know that my husband has a profile on there. And I didn't, I haven't looked at it enough to know, like, who can sign up. But if you could sign up, I could definitely sign up. What I'm thinking. Awesome. Well, Shana, it's been an absolute pleasure having you today. Thank you so much, again for your time, and your passion and dedication for what you do for our military community. We can't I can't thank you enough. And I know this won't be the last conversation we have. Because before you know it, you're probably gonna get another book published. And then I'm gonna have to bring you back on the show. So thank you.

: 45:33

Thank you. I'd love people to know that I did the audio recording for warrior how to support those who protect us. So if reading a book on Amazon is not your thing, the audio should be coming out in the next few months.

Jen Amos: 45:44

Fantastic. And I think our listeners are really appreciate that, especially if they're podcast junkies, they'd appreciate knowing that they can read your book via audio. Genuine any closing thoughts?

: 45:54

No, this was wonderful. I thoroughly enjoyed myself.

Jen Amos: 45:59

Thank you. Awesome. Thank you both. Yeah. All right. And to our listeners, we hope that today's episode gave you one more piece of knowledge, resource or relevant story so you can continue to make confident and informed decisions for you and your family. Thanks for joining us, and we'll chat with you next time. Take care